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Unclear Development

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#1Vice Gamebell 

Unclear Development Empty on Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:57 pm

Vice Gamebell
===SPELLS===
-Do all spells have durability, and how it interacts clearly, such as knockbacks needing to be able to be stopped. Baratuq has 2 rank increases.
-Medium Magic and staffs should be noted that they are motioned to cast.
-https://www.fairytailrp.com/t53023-what-s-the-order-in-which-buffs-are-applied this should be in spell regulations.
-I think Greed Magic should be buffed, as it's way weaker than things like Undine (even 500k less).
-There should be a default non-subjective sensing option, without picking the sensing examples, for magics without those sensory. It could be mana sensing, for example. Items have mana sensing, but it should be accessible to modern mages.

===CHARS===
-Ethnicities should be linked in the character template, as lots of people (including me) didn't see where they were.
-Berserker touch-based needs to be clearer, as people can just go Spellsword with Overcharge Self-Buff. Spellhowler and Singer were changed to fix that, why not Berserker?
-Note that classes don't affect Tarots and items that buff/debuff. Such as Berserker self-buff bonus, and the other debuff/buff classes for items.
-It should be clear if people get rewards, if they beat someone 2 ranks higher. Someone can waste all their jewels on bad things, switch builds often, go inactive to lose things, and they can also be scooped/rush XP potions.
-"Once the original user sells their Custom, the item will once again be limited to one person. In this case it would be the second buyer."
The custom shop is locked fully currently. Do people who have a custom they didn't create keep the custom if they go inactive? Some people might want to keep non-custom items permanently too, so maybe have a fee for that. There was a notice on Discord deleted.

===MISC===
-Temperance Tarot isn't changed yet.
-Companions are priced differently than Equipment Regulations.

Update wrote:Spell Regulations
- Mana Reduction: The maximum amount of mana reduction that can be achieved has been capped at 70%.
- Cooldown Reduction: It is not possible for A-rank and S-rank spells to decrease in cooldown lower than 1 post.
- Spell Speed Clarification: Spell speed is not used when it comes to spells involving the movement of the user.
(Spells that were approved this way shouldn't have been already, as carry-cloaks were already outlawed on FTRP years ago.)
- Spell Origin Clarification: A spell that spawns elsewhere creates a magic circle at the target location and at the caster.
(The rules had this before.)

- Coating Spells: Should the user coat themselves magically, the damage exerted will only become that magical damage and not magic plus physical. This applies to limbs, body, or even weapons.
(Off Vice spells I'd think Steel pushed this, as he seemed confused on the spells, but this doesn't change them.)
- Buff and Debuff Duration: They must all be listed as Sustain spells from now on. Whether you use it for a single post or not is your choice.
(This should be all of those already, but there are effects this could be relevant for if people had registered one post buffs.)
- Buff and Debuff Clarification: In addition, the target of the spell must be within the range of the spell to remain buffed or debuffed. This could be the caster or another source. Lastly, Buff and Debuff on Constitution and Endurance does not heal or damage a target. It adds or takes away from the potential.
(Remaining within range is a good clarification I haven't seen before. Idk what "takes away from potential" means, so I think con/end de-buff still need clarification most sites have. For reference, Noel an old developer had said he didn't know con/end debuff, which matches with him not making them. Is con/end buff temporary HP that won't ever be harmful?)
- Knock-Back: This is now a specific supplementary spell. Existing personal spells that are Offensive plus Knock-Back need to be pulled for revision. Knock-Back outside supplementary can still be obtained via Enhancements.
(Knockback needed clarification too, it still appears to, as it needs to be able to be defended against with normal spells. Offensive knockback isn't an enhancement though I believe, besides for Crash Magic.)
- Binding Spells: Require one rank higher Strength now to break free from. In addition, paying the mana equivalent to purge the spell does not allow the user to ignore the spell as if they run through it.
(Reminds me of a Halloween magic. The ignore portion is a minor stun-lock for combat modding I guess, but I like this buff as binds were too weak before.)

I think clarifications are nice tho. Holiday goodies was handled fun too to be able to change rolls.

#2Konyo 

Unclear Development Empty on Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:10 pm

Konyo

- Certain spell types do, at the moment, such as offensive, defensive, and binding, whether the others haven't been discussed, in my opinion, they shouldn't as otherwise raw damage is further pushed into whats the best way to do things. Baratuq itself for now just affects those things.

- Enhancements are being tweaked if that's not the case I'll look at it while that's happening.

- A notion regarding buffing order was added in the revisions but was not added in the final version, I will do so shortly.

- Greed doesn't need buffing as it is immensely potent when used correctly, Undine magic is meant to receive a nerf.

- Supplementary sensory spells listed are just examples it's quite possible to make other types just that they might require further review.

- A link to nationalities does need to be added to the character application, I'll discuss it with staff.

- Berserker will likely receive a buff as a result of the various changes that occurred with buffing and general spell regulation changes.

- Yes it is intentional for class perks to solely impact the user's magic and not items or tarots.

- Not sure what you mean about wasting money?, that's at the discretion of the user how they spend their money.

- Outcome of the retention of a custom item held by another hasn't been discussed.

- Temperance Tarot I'm aware of this becomes more critical if someone has it for now we are working on other projects.

- Companions are intentionally priced differently to equipment.

- Not sure what you mean by this "..., as carry-cloaks were already outlawed on FTRP years ago"

- Rules may have had it but it was an additional clarification which was seen as need with questions being asked about it.

- Again not sure what you mean by this "Off Vice spells I'd think Steel pushed this, as he seemed confused on the spells, but this doesn't change them."

- Another clarification made for members and a balance to offset recasting buffs or debuffs.

- Unsure about the relevance of referencing a member, but sure it seems like there's some confusion about debuffing con and endurance which can be clarified further.

- The enhancement hasn't been added yet.

- Not sure what you're getting at outside of a critique?



Unclear Development DkwJGxo
#3Vice Gamebell 

Unclear Development Empty on Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:13 pm

Vice Gamebell
Not trying to only critique, I just enjoy balancing clarifications rather than system-building. Changing rolls for holidays is an interesting addition from the topic last year. Little things like that are interesting to me, since I think the balance here is solid compared to elsewhere.

@Konyo wrote:- Certain spell types do, at the moment, such as offensive, defensive, and binding, whether the others haven't been discussed, in my opinion, they shouldn't as otherwise raw damage is further pushed into whats the best way to do things. Baratuq itself for now just affects those things.

Ah, durability's been removed from rules completely. Baratuq isn't the only magic that increases durability I believe, recent DS do as well, I think there's a non-defensive normal limited too.

It's mainly about transparency of the durability term itself now, but also how can someone defend against a knockback beside items? It's just a physical effect. Sensory spells shouldn't have durability though.

More importantly for me, but there's been similar cases.

"Buff and Debuff spells can be stacked on a target, however, they cannot be the same spell." This wasn't included in describing an update. Noel had suggested this as well, so I think he does have a reasonable sway on development still. It just pushes for spell slots.

It's easier to give a general update to reread a rule page, rather than letting people be ignorant to changes and ask confused unfair questions later.


- Supplementary sensory spells listed are just examples it's quite possible to make other types just that they might require further review.

In my case when I was a new member at D-rank, I asked if there was any sort of spell I could make that isn't a tag. I was told a hard-no, even after citing Venus's.

Later, Zeke has a heartbeat sensing spell I believe.


- Yes it is intentional for class perks to solely impact the user's magic and not items or tarots.

I think that's agreeable in balance, it's just about interaction in the rules to explicitly say that.

- Not sure what you mean about wasting money?, that's at the discretion of the user how they spend their money.

If fighting someone 2 ranks higher and not getting rewards, it'd be because it's unbalanced presumably?

Besides the non-wasting jewels, people can waste jewels on many things that don't interact to help fighting. It's fine if the activity matches to regain losses, but if people don't have a stabilized build then it's perfectly reasonable someone 2 ranks lower is stronger.

You lose spells changing magic, but that's not particularly jewels-related. Changing from a limited magic is jewels related. Regular mythics cost 5m and can take a huge chunk for not a large return (Ragnar for example). His DS cost a lot as well. Ezekiel early on as A-rank I think is a good example of what a C-rank can beat on paper relatively easily as well. It's not about upper rank fairness, as I believe he fought someone of his own choice.

Races have weaknesses and don't outright dominate, so that's a jewels investment. Whenever you buy lower-level items, you're operating at a loss. Items that are "off-meta" "underpowered" exist or simply interact badly, so that's a jewels loss.

The balance is too diverse for 2 ranks higher to be innately superior in any way to lower ranks. Enhancement changes recently made fighting at C-rank easier too on paper, but I digress.


- Outcome of the retention of a custom item held by another hasn't been discussed.

I was informed the original update had new owners losing them on inactivity.

- Temperance Tarot I'm aware of this becomes more critical if someone has it for now we are working on other projects.

I personally can't handle that many topics lol, but it's more about how it seems like an easy change right? Add on 2 extra topics perhaps, idk.

- Companions are intentionally priced differently to equipment.

Idk why, but I know I did point out inconsistencies for Kratos/Eru/another pet maybe before. It's just small things like this that has/had confused staff and members alike.

- Not sure what you mean by this "..., as carry-cloaks were already outlawed on FTRP years ago"

Many sites have had a meta of "ah, I surround myself in an aura, it now marionettes me at spell speed". I'd browsed FTRP before and saw dashes like that, but the rules had already explicitly forbid it, so I just didn't get the update mention.

- Again not sure what you mean by this "Off Vice spells I'd think Steel pushed this, as he seemed confused on the spells, but this doesn't change them."

As far as I saw, Steel does/has done development, and he had this mistaken impression that my spells had ever changed from before Ereb fight to now.

- Another clarification made for members and a balance to offset recasting buffs or debuffs.

Already addressed above, but "Whether you use it for a single post or not is your choice." that doesn't reference buff stacking at all.

#4Konyo 

Unclear Development Empty on Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:12 am

Konyo

- At the moment there technically isn't a way it will have to be discussed I imagine it will have a similar rule as binding but that's not clear right now.

- Meanwhile, any and all changes made are accessible through the discord in the update channel, big ones such as these will be compiled alongside those to come in a topic for other members later to look at.

- If that is the case then the grader is at fault which will have to be review.

- The outcome of customs aren't something I'm completely up to date with I will review current policies and get back to you.

- The price difference is generally related to the ramifications of having a companion, another thing to control and becomes something that is considered when scale power to cost. Pre-existing companions meanwhile like those you meanwhile will likely receive reworks in the time to come.

- Yeah all good.

- While it does not directly reference it, because it changes from instant to sustain it inherently prevents the ability to recast as it needs to go off cool-down which doesn't begin until the spell is dismissed.



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#5Vice Gamebell 

Unclear Development Empty on Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:06 am

Vice Gamebell
Cheers for replying, cutting quote as I think this'll be last question post and other things were addressed.

@Konyo wrote:- If that is the case then the grader is at fault which will have to be review.

I don't think the grader's at fault, they went to ask other staff. It's just an avoidable subjectivity regarding non-exampled sensory spells imo, and I'd have used any form of sensory in my fights if I could.

- The price difference is generally related to the ramifications of having a companion, another thing to control and becomes something that is considered when scale power to cost. Pre-existing companions meanwhile like those you meanwhile will likely receive reworks in the time to come.

My companion is ass yes lol, but I mainly mean how people don't know on first look unlimited companions are full price.

- While it does not directly reference it, because it changes from instant to sustain it inherently prevents the ability to recast as it needs to go off cool-down which doesn't begin until the spell is dismissed.

I don't disagree with the change of buff stacking, it just wasn't announced. Noel's logic doesn't hold on many sites with buff stacking and Noel personally tried to rule on a fight of me buff stacking with sustains he "allowed". Sustains are just spells/jutsu/etc effects that continue running. Now I have an actual question, in whether B-rank and below sustains that aren't buffs/debuffs can be recast while sustaining. Aaaah, I wish I could get Overheat refund as it only saves spell slots for instants then, but I recognize others have lost jewels in updates.

Consider this: why would a same spell need to go on cooldown? You can cast multiple fireballs for example per Overheat logically, there's no "strain" in casting (as you can cast other "fireballs" even if "different spells"), and spells don't have a unique incantation of some sort in-universe. It should be clear whether all spells need to end before recasting, which makes Overheat useless but o well. I'd figured I'd have to do Generic Spell 1, Generic Buff Spell 2 at some point.

It sucks others have to give me Discord updates, but it doesn't matter if durability/buff stacking/etc rules over time aren't detailed as changed. It makes people have to reread all the rules less the rug is pulled under them, but people don't do that, so there's been different and unrelated disconnects. Anyhow, I digress, thanks again for your work.

#6Konyo 

Unclear Development Empty on Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:16 am

Konyo

- Alrighty will look into that

- Will have to add something to that regarding companion prices.

- Members with the enhancement will be offered the chance to receive a refund when it's shelved.



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#7Vice Gamebell 

Unclear Development Empty on Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:09 am

Vice Gamebell
While I'm personally disagreeable to cooldowns (Jyu's site past Saga removed them I believe), it'd have just been easier to remove Overheat 1st, as the sustain/buff stack w/e just become filler.

https://www.fairytailrp.com/t51819-enhancement-purger

Can I post here for refund, perhaps adding a disclaimer in 1st post that enhancement changes can redeem a refund for free?

Either way, that'd be my last question and can mark this topic as solved.

#8Konyo 

Unclear Development Empty on Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:52 am

Konyo

A notice will be added when the shelving occurs and you can apply for the refund in the resell review then. :D



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#9Konyo 

Unclear Development Empty on Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:55 am

Konyo


This question has been answered and moved.



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